Culture / Feminism / Race

Elliot Rodger and Masculinity as a Culture of Violence

We waited a bit to write something on this. Every new detail that comes out of this murder is horrific. It’s upsetting to think that this could have happened on any campus, and in fact, does happen with enough regularity that it’s a confirmed problem. Maybe Elliot Rodger was mentally ill. Maybe he was just a lonely, angry college kid who snapped. But maybe this has little bearing on what happened the other day in Isla Vista.

There is a reason for why mass shooters often fit a profile. Multiple studies have shown masculinity to be a violent identity, where white middle-class men fall back into men’s rights groups, white supremacy, and other reactionary movements. We have seen examples of this as comments on our website, where men believe they are suffering abuse because their sexual “needs” aren’t being met. But they suffer because of entitlement, and because they know they are not getting what they feel they deserve. They suffer because they feel the pain of not meeting the impossible standards of masculinity. The difference, of course, is that when they suffer, they take others with them in the worst way.

ucsb vigil

The gender binary is as follows: Men are taught to be aggressors and active, women are taught to be submissive and passive. Women are twice as likely to be described as pushy than men are. Men are taught that their ideas have inherent value. Women’s thoughts are systemically undervalued. Women speak 75% less in groups where they are outnumbered by men. Young people think men make history because it is the men who are historically visible. Women have been told they could not be writers, inventors, great thinkers, scientists, artists. Now women are told that they can do these things, but that their writing is provincial, or their thoughts are muddled with histrionics, or that their focus isn’t universal, that their husbands understand politics better, or when are they going to have children already. Women who have been an integral part of history have been erased. Women were and are valued for their relationship to men and male gratification. In short:

Values we draw from masculinity: reason, power, dominance, authority, justice

When standards are not met: men are feminized, and called feminine names like pussy or bitch

Values we draw from femininity: nurturing, grace, purity, kindness, emotion

When standards are not met: women are called names like dyke, slut, whore, crazy, bitch, frigid, prude

This is old news and can be found in less abridged forms in scientific and sociological studies. But it culminates to a dangerous power dynamic, where we teach men that their identities are inherently aggressive, and we teach that women are the subject of their aggression. As Coline Covington notes in her article about the Criado-Perez scare, “As men feel emasculated, they try to regain an illusion of power through violence.”

Rodger frequented an anti-pickup forum that exposed PUA as a scam, rather than one exposing it as harmful to women, suggesting that he may have at once tried these strategies and found them wanting. PUA techniques and strategies embody this binary. They argue that in order for a man to attract women, the man must have it together, himself. Not a bad ideology on the surface. But there is an extreme conflation with confidence and dominance. They advise that men should not “put the pussy on a pedestal,” and yet the measure of success is based on the “accomplishment” of getting laid. The most dangerous pickup tactics tell men to take charge, to not wait for consent, to not wait for a no. They tell men that dominance is attractive. That women don’t like beta males. In the face of rejection from women who exercise autonomy over their own bodies, men perceive women to have the ultimate power.

giveAfuckometer: what a boss, but he should be more smart by being a serial killer, raping and killing girls way more smart and torture them until martyr state. Rodney Jones: See girls this is what you get for treating nice guys like shit. Dan Neuenswander: I don't blame guns. I blame blondes for this one. SlippaE619: I hope you women see this as a lesson stop being so stuck up and give that one kid some pussy who never gets shit and you might save a life smdfh this nigga couldve saved his life if only one of you dumbs cunts could of given him sweetness Dan Zhukov: And I really feel bad for him, rejection is agonyThe ideas Elliot Rodger carried with him are ideas that everyone is bombarded with, and that we all buy into at one point or another. In Rodger’s manifesto, he claimed he needed to do what he did in order to become “the true alpha male.” “It’s not fair” he lamented, that women won’t have sex with him. He is angered by the thought of sorority girls looking down on him and thinking of him as an “inferior man.” Call him crazy if you want, but the truth is, you can find so many other men parroting these exact ideologies in men’s rights groups. In the aftermath, many men argue that selfish women could have saved lives if only they offered this poor boy pity sex.

Even when there aren’t mass shootings, we can see this violence played out in a lot of ways. Men who go to counseling for abusive behavior often believe they have an anger problem. They think they need to get in touch with their emotions, when the truth is that they are all too in touch with their emotions, to the point where their struggles eclipse other peoples’. They, in fact, don’t have an anger problem, they have an empathy problem. In the book, Why Does He Do That?, Lundy Bancroft, domestic violence and abuse expert, notes:

“I have almost never worked with an abused woman who overlooked her partner’s humanity. The problem is reverse: He forgets her humanity. […] When a man starts my program, he often says, ‘I am here because I lose control of myself sometimes. I need to get a better grip.’ I always correct him: ‘Your problem is not that you lose control of yourself, it’s that you take control of your partner. In order to change, you don’t need to gain control over yourself, you need to let go of control of her.’”

It is the same with Rodger. His suffering carried more importance than those he murdered. There have been many people asking questions about how we can help people like him. The problem is deep-seated. Framing this as a mental illness is pinning this problem of masculinity on the mentally ill, and letting everyone else off the hook. It’s not a mental illness problem. It’s not a gun problem. These are the side-effects of patriarchy, and we must do everything we can to unlearn it.

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81 thoughts on “Elliot Rodger and Masculinity as a Culture of Violence

  1. Why misrepresent Mens Rights activists by putting us into the same category alongside with racist groups,etc? There are good reasons why MRA’s exist. When we have a culture that glorifies and makea a joke out of violence against men by women{in hollywood movies, tv- especially sitcoms,etc; as well as usually representing men as lovable but dumb oaf sexists and women as the ones with a good head on their shoulders}, when official stats gatherers such as Stats Canada, CDC, and others say that about 49% of domestic violence victims are males{abused by female partners/etc} and 51% are females, it’s allmost 50/50, and yet anti-domestic violence campaigns focus SOLEY on blaming men and men only{or allmost only} and rarely if ever hold women to the same standards of culpability. These are facts. Yet they are mostr oft ignored so that feminists can demonize males and make females out to be pure as the virgin snow. It is grossly sexists against males. In Canada{where I live} for example; Statistics Canada’s numbers say that about 8% of women are victims of domestic violence and 7% of men are. Yet you’d never know that by the way that anti-domestic violence events, ads, movement,etc frame the issue, nor by the way the mainstream media represents the issue.
    In fact, a Harvard study published a few years ago actually says that as much as 70% of NON-REPRICOL domestic/relationship violence by women aginst men/
    I know the excuses the people who ignore this use. Oh men are larger and stronger than women. I don’t think a valid and objective and nuanced large scale global study has EVER been donew to prove this assertion. But lets say this is true for sake of argument that on average men are larger,stronger,etc than women{or boys compared to girls}, this does not take into account that in todays world we have many men/boys that are smaller, weaker, less fit/healthy{perhaps with disabilities}, less apt at fighting/physically defending themselves,etc. and many women/girls who are larger/stronger/more fit/better fighters/etc; and this is the case with violence between the genders too; but even if a smaller/weaker/etc males so much as strikes back in self-defense against a women who’s bigger/stronger/healthier/fitter/etc than he -he still generally gets demonized for even dooing that{not so if the roles are reversed}. Myself for example, I have been physically assaulted by 3 different women in my adult life{I am 35 now}, two were MUCH larger and stronger than myself, one was about same size and roughly same stregth as I{but I have a physical disablitity, severe scolioses and related issues, she does’nt- nor did the othert two}- and I never fought back by the way, where is the sympathy for males like myself? In fact even when I was a kid there were a few instances where girls kicked me in the balls or tried to and I got them back or first, I was the one who got in more trouble; and this is a problem that still exists today in schools, where boys are still told to never hit a girl{girls are not tauight to ther same degree to never hit a boy} and if a boy defends himself against an agressive female he’s the one that generally gets in more trouble. from youth onwards boys/men are taught to be ashamed of being born with a penis, girls/wpmen are taught to celebrate their gender however; in fact theer are all sorts of orgs, movements,a nd aids provided to young girls with self-esteem issues and image issues,etc, girl power stuff all over the place in schools and media,etc; and next to nothing for boys the same; consequently boys are underperforming girls because no one cares about them as much as the girls, tboys and young men face just as much image and self-esteem issues as females{and often the same kind} but there is little boy power for them.
    How is this not sexist against males

    In a culture where in divorce and child custody battles women usually{not always] are the default parent for the children to be placed with, where the men usually much more than the women{not always, but usually} have to study the law and spend a bunch of money to get access to their children, much moreso than women have to. Men, moreso than women, have to leap through more loopholes, spend much more money and time and energy in fighting for their parental rights, and have to prove themselves much more than women have to. When there is alot of focus on demonizing “deadbeat dads” and heaps of sympathy poured out for “single mothers”, and yet little to no talk about all the “deadbeat moms” or sympathy for the “single dads”.
    How is this not sexist against males?

    Most of the homeless are males{lots of females too; but much more men}.

    This is just the tip of the iceburg of why MRA’s exist. I could provide more solid examples for you. But for sake of brevity, time and space, I’ll stop here for now.
    To lump MRA’s in with racist groups is unfair and a strawman argument, ad hominem, and a serious misrepresentiation of why we exist and what we are about{I myself count myself as a MRA where applicable but also a WRA- womens rights activist where aplicable and over-all a gender egalitarian and egalitarian in general; I make a distinction, as all people should, between the gender-centric sexist hypocritical cults of Feminism and Masculism, between they and Mens Rights or womens rights suffrage/activism- which are not inherently sexist as the gender centric label cults ARE; both feminism and mascualism}.

    When the evidence proves there are legitimate reasons for MRA’s to exist,. it is very sexist and hypocritical and unfair to lump them in with racial supremacist groups,etc. MRA’s are not about gender supremacism{nor is womens rights activism in itself} but ‘feminism”{as well as”mascualism”} are defintionally gender supremacisms.

    Please revise your views and statements about MRA’s to make them fairer and make them fit reality and facts. Otherwise you’re no better than the ones you oppose; like Neitzsche pointed out ‘take care that while fighting monsters, you do not become one”.

    Lastly, there are alot of logical fallacies and shallow rhetorical devices in your article above.

    • A whole lot of MRAs act like they belong to a hate group and so their tiny movement is classified as one. Simple as that, dude. Men have issues too and it sucks that advocates for those issues so often use them solely to contradict feminism or are just generally poop people.
      Having the name “feminism” does not make the movement supremacist.

      • SOME do, not all or even most, Whereas the majority of the feminist movement acts like a hate group against males{not ALL of them do}. So what exactly is your point? If you’re going to apply that accusation and standard to MRA’s, should’nt you also be applying them to feminists?

        //” and so their tiny movement is classified as one.”//

        No it’s falsely classified as one because the mainstream radical 3rd wave feminist movement has become a powerful, wealthy, and influential movement and has succesfully managaned to wrongly paint MRA’s as a hate group and to misrepresent statistics and facts to their ideological ends of blaming/scapegoating and demonizing males and masculinity and ONLY males and to make it out like women{all women; or most} femininity and feminists as being innocent and pure of any sexism, repressions/oppressions, hypocrisy, privelage, or wrong dooing, and they have bullied/strong armed the mainstream media{and hollywood} and gov’t into helping them misrepresent stats and facts about gender violence, because if they don’t- they are accused of misogyny for not aiding and abbeting and helping along the radical feminist cause and rhetoric and misrepresentation of stats and facts about violence between genders.

        //”Men have issues too and it sucks that advocates for those issues so often use them solely to contradict feminism “//

        Again you are applying a double standard here. Many feminists use their ideology and rhetoric to just scapegoat males and make women seem as the sole victims and pure and innocent. Why don’t you apply the same standards to them?

        //”Having the name “feminism” does not make the movement supremacist.”//

        Yes, it does. Just as having the label ‘masculism” is inherently sexist and and supremacist, feminism is the same. There is a huge difference between being an egalitarian human rights activist fighting for mens rights activism where applicable but not using the gender-centric/androcentric label masculism; the same is true when it comes to legit womens rights activism and the gynocentric/gender-centric label ‘feminism”. Both labels and ideologies imply that their gender is more important than the other{or then the non-gendered}. Each is and acts like a cult religion ideology of supremacist and their gender centered only hypocrites{feminism and mascualism; but then most MRA’s do not use the term mascualist because they are aware of this, whereas the majority of the mainstream womens rights movement these days DOES use their gender-centric cult ideology/religion label}.

        Now, I wish to deconstruct a couple things in your article:

        //”There is a reason for why mass shooters often fit a profile”//

        Wrong. There are a number of different kinds of “mass shooters” with a number of different gripes, ideologies, etc. And they are’nt ALL men or ‘white males” as you both sexistly and racistly put it.

        //”Multiple studies have shown masculinity to be a violent identity”//

        Wrong. The majority of the studies that suggest such allmost always start out with an a-priori radical feminists idea; and most of them are either done by rad feminists or by others on their behalf– {starting off with a confirmation bias a-priori ideological view and proceeding to do fallacious research and thinking and therefore coming to false conclusions} of what the terms masculine and feminine mean, and thus cannot be trusted.

        //”We have seen examples of this as comments on our website, where men believe they are suffering abuse because their sexual “needs” aren’t being met. “//

        A few random examples/cases of men acting like this is not a real reflection on MRA’s. MRA’s are not mad at women, we are mad at feminists{not all, in fact MOST women are NOT ‘feminists”}. We are legitmately angry at the double standards and hypocrisies against males that I mentioned above in this and my other post. I’ve never met a MRA that is mad at ‘women” because otheir ‘sexual needs’ are’nt being met. Your argument as such is a strawman and your comparing MRA’s with white supremacist[or any racial supremacist] groups/ideologies is a false equivalency.
        This young man who went on this shooting rampage was likely either a sociopath OR had serious psychollogical health issues that needed to be adressed. He did’nt claim to be an MRA, nor do the few other random examples of men like him.

        It’s like when the Night Stalker Richard Ramirez{a famous serial killer} CLAIMED to be a satanist so the satanic panic of tje 1980’s occured and a bunch of people were persecuted{satanists and non-satanists accused of being satanist} using Ramriez and a few other random cases of pseudo-satanist violence or pseudo-satanist vandalism,etc, to justify the idea that there was some satanic conspiracy and that chi;d raping, human sacrificing, church burning satanists were around every corner. this was later debunked; but it took years.
        You and others are making a similar error in judgement about a few random examples of things such as this young mans actions and rhetoric to justify fear of males/masculinity and the idea that there are evil sexist violent males around every corner looking to harm or oppress females and to justify demonization of MRA’s as well[when it has NOTHING to do with MRA-ism AT ALL}.

        //”. But they suffer because of entitlement,”//

        Nonsense. There are alot of poor, unentitled, under-privelaged men, and lots of entitled and privelaged or over privelaged women. Your argument is unscientific and ignores variables and nuance amongst the human species.
        I’m a piss poor white male with a disability, grew up poor and continue to live in poverty, and theer are millions more in the world. How can you suggest to someone like me/us that we are “privelaged/entitled” by accident of birth and yet ignore the privelage and power of rich non-whites and non-males in the world? By your ideological rhetorics I’m privelaged and entitled whilst an Oprah Winfrey or a Hillary Clinton or a Kanye West are somehow under-priveleged/unentitled by accident of birth though they are millionaires and billionares and i[and others like me} are living below the poverty line.
        Your rhetoric has no logical, factual, or TRULY scientific merits.

        //”Values we draw from masculinity: reason, power, dominance, authority, justice”…Values we draw from femininity: nurturing, grace, purity, kindness, emotion//

        Nonsense. Masculinity denotes nothing more than being born with a penis. Feminity denotes nothing more than being born with a vagina.
        Your ideas of what these terms imply are falsehoods put forth by pseudo-scientific feminists, who make the same errors about these things as were made by the patriarchy they claim to oppose. They are feminarchy. Both{patriarchy and feminarchy} are the same shit- different pile, two sides of the same coin.
        These false binaries promoted by both patriarchal and feminarchal types are falsehoods.

        //”When standards are not met: men are feminized, and called feminine names like pussy or bitch
        When standards are not met: women are called names like dyke, slut, whore, crazy, bitch, frigid, prude”//

        I refer you to my last paragraph above.
        I add this. All this suggests is that both the patriarchy and feminarchy have placed false ideas on each gender. I think that both of the above things you mention are actually rare or at least said without too much seriousness by most people.
        Men also get called names for the same reasons women do, “pig”, “perv”, “creepy”, “womanizer’,etc,etc. And women often get called “butch”, ‘tomboy”, etc.
        So in other words, all you’ve proven is that both males and females have been falsely stereotyped and had unreasonable standards put on them by both the sexist males and/or patriarchy as wella s by the sexist females and feminarchy.

        But you apply the standards or accusations unequally to males than you do to females. Who’s the sexist?

        The point of your article should have been that sometimes males and sometimes females do crazy violent shit because they are mad at the other gender{or want to; some of the most famous 2nd wave feminists for example thought all men were rapists and that men should die or be killed-such as Andrea Dvorkin; and recently there has even been a twitter thing for new young radical feminists called “killallmales”; where is your and other feminists criticisms of this horrible, violent, sexist nonsense?}. Nothing less or more. But you have taken one of a few rare examples of a guy pissed at women who went out and shot a bunch of people{both female AND male btw} to justify your own preconcieved feminist notions and your own sexism against males and masculinity and your own false views of what MRA-ism is.

        Like I said your article and your arguments are just a strong of false equivelencies, strawman attacks, and other logical fallacies and misinformation coming from your own allready preconcieved a-priori false notions and spurious and questionable research.

        • I’ve never met a feminist who hated men, so your initial assumption is probably bullshit. I would rethink your opinions if I were you.

          What a lot of men don’t realize is that feminism and women’s rights activism helps men to. You talk about how desensitized we as a society are to violence against men in the media. This is certainly true. An overwhelming majority of people who die “for their country” are men. This all comes down to traditional gender roles and stereotypes, which feminism seeks to overcome. Both men and women could do with that, imo.

          There is nothing wrong with men’s rights activism, but most MRA groups I have seen are openly sexist, racist, etc. That’s a problem. All of them I have seen are pretty much just anti-feminist groups, as though MRA and WRA are mutually exclusive. Is it so hard to see why that idea is idiotic?

          • It’s worth noting that this dude recommended we focus on white slavery when Solomon talked about institutionalized racism against minorities. So at least the racist part would fit the bill for this guy. I also have a hard time buying his thesis of feminism as a supremacist movement. For it to be a supremacist movement, women have to be a dominant power already, for which they are not.

              • The evidence suggests that we have gone from patriarchy not to gender neutralism in our society but to the polar opposite feminarchy. If there was’nt such, would even the mainstream media and gov’t and school systems, the legal system{in regards parental custody battles} and so on be so willingly ignoring of the facts about violence against men or other issues of inequality that men and boys face in our current western world? The feminarchy indeed exists and is growing in power, wealth, affluence, influence,etc in the west. If not so, then these issues and inequalities that men and boys face would be adressed more and men and boys[no matter their status in life/the world in terms of class, wealth, fame, etc, or lack thereof} would not be SOLEY blamed for everything now would they be? But they are, by the mainstream western hypocritical, mostly middle class hypocrite feminists and the mainstream media, govt,etc that aid and abbett in helping them promote their hypocrisies and sexist double standards, blaming of men alone, and not aknowelding AT ALL the issues or inequalies faced by males in some contexts or issues that scientific and data/stats prove exist.

            • //”It’s worth noting that this dude recommended we focus on white slavery when Solomon talked about institutionalized racism against minorities. “//

              And how is this objectively wrong or irrelevant in the context of the article I was commenting on?

              //”hard time buying his thesis of feminism as a supremacist movement”

              Well then, please read the rest of my comments and evidences, and check out the videos fro youtube I shared.

              //”For it to be a supremacist movement, women have to be a dominant power already, for which they are not.”//

              Not all feminists are women btw. And not all women{most are’nt} are “feminists”, nor does ‘feminism”{a gender-centric labelled cult ideology} equal= womens rights activism where applicable.

              Nor are males a dominant power. The dominant powers of this world are both males and females, various races and creeds and countries, the extremely wealthy/powerful people in general.

            • You’re blatantly MISREPRESENTING my arguments and what I was saying about the issue.

              So, in other words what you’re saying is the whites have never been the minority? I’m sure the 1.5 million white slaves that were sold by Muslim Arabs to black North Africa would disagree; obviously they were the minority there.
              Your worldview is so last few centuries and western world-centric. Frankly in North America today there are no actual racial ‘minorities”, North America is awash with people of all races and cultures, and that’s a good thing. In Europe whites are the majority and others minorities. In Asia asians are the majority, in africa{north} blacks are majority, in the middle east fundamentalist muslim arabs are the majority; white people in most of the rest of the world theerfore are the “minorities” there.

              I’m not the racist for aknowleding these facts and being against ALL Racism and Slavery, you’re the one who’s beeing racist by deliberately excluding and discriminating against white people.

            • we should focus on ALL racial oppression, I’m equally against what was done to the blacks in the U.S.{or any other races ooppressed anywhere in the world at any point in history} as I am against what was done to white slaves by the arabs and north africans.
              That’s my point. I’m being equally empathetic towards ALL, you’re deliberately being unempathetic towards oppressed or repressed or under-privelaged whites, males, etc.

              • except you pointedly ignore ongoing injustice towards black Americans and pretend their time of oppression is over. that is not empathetic. our attentions are with people who are currently, as in RIGHT NOW, oppressed. white slavery was wrong, and in places where it still happens, it is wrong, but in America, black slavery is still very relevant and you refuse to accept any information that backs that up, basically because you don’t like the idea and evidence for it is “biased.”

                • IT IS over. Institutionally it is over. Are there FRINGE white supremacists individuals or groups still around? Yeah. And MOST of the citizens reject their racism. theer are also black supremacist movements[the Black Panthers for one} and others as well. theer are male supremacist individuals and groups and female ones too, pretty much all fringe groups or individuals.

                  There is no evidence that there is STILL some insitutional or large scale citizenry conspiracy of white or male/or white male supramacism in power in North America. Those who think so are living in a delusion! North America is the most racially/gender wise/creed wise/etc equal, diverse and accwepting of diversity place on the planet[perfect? no. But for the most part sdiverse and tolerant more than other parts of the world}, not much homogenity here.
                  I mean Europe is mostly homogenously white[though still more diverse and tolerant than many other places}, but then Asis is homogeously asian, north africa is homogenously black, middle east is homosgeous in race too; and in all these places though theer are smatterings of diversity there…for the most part these parts of the world are racially, gender power wise, religiously/creed, etc,etc VERY HOMOGEOUS and FAR LESS diverity and acceptace of diversity. Where is your outcry against their bigotry and homogeousness? No only North America is somehow in your mind so homogeous and racist and oppressive and only whites/males/white male are to blame for EVERYTHING!
                  I’d like to see you move to one of these other countries and parts of the world and see how fast you change your opinion and want to come back to north america.

                  Now, I agree that North America is probably the most imperalist and most classist of all nations in the world, and majroyl hypocritical as a result. However in terms of racial/gender[and other kinds of diversity and tolerance and acceptance of such} North America is the cream of the crop.
                  It’s absurd that you don’t realize this objective reality, and you use your wrong headed fallacious thinking so that you can demonize whites/males/white males and ONLY them.

                  • Why are black families the poorest overall? Why are black men the most incarcerated? Why do black people serve more time for the same charges as whites? Why are black children given the worst educations? Why are black children kicked out of school so much more often? Why are black names far less likely to get a call back for a job or home listing? Why are black people who speak in black dialect considered “stupid?” Why is the popular image of a welfare recipient black, when white recipients far outweigh them?

                    If these are just holdovers from discrimination that is “over,” then why are there so few concerted efforts on the part of the government to right this historical damage? The job of ending discrimination was declared done when it had really just gotten to the point of beginning. Why do people see affirmative action as a negative and think it’s enough to simply stop enslaving people? Now we’re “equal,” but is this state of things going to let black people reach the same heights as white people in the same numbers?

                    Do you believe that the races are inherently equal in potential and capability? When the only thing that’s holding black people back is the actions of our ancestors, why SHOULDN’T we feel guilty or try to right those wrongs? Diversity and “acceptance” are great, but what the hell do they mean when these are the results we get? It isn’t enough.

                    • I know I took my leave in regards these arguments. However I will add.
                      They are’nt. This is delusion and ignores the millions of poor whites/males/white males intentionally.

                      //”Do you believe that the races are inherently equal in potential and capability?”//

                      Of course, I would think that would be obvious by my arguments.

          • //”I’ve never met a feminist who hated men”//

            I have{not alot, but a few; and you cannot claim there is no such thing as such, I mean Hello Andrea Dvorkin for one example}, but that’s not exactly what I said or what I was suggesting. What I’m saying is that they blame/scapegoat men and ONLY men for domestic violence, for violence in general, for all rape/molestation and sexual assault or sexual harrasment, for all child abuse, for captialism{if they are anti-capitalist feminists} or for communism{if they are anti-communist feminists} or basically anything and everything wrong in the world or that they think wrong in the world. Whilst simultaneously suggesting that women/females are pure and innocent and ALWAYS the victims of males and males never the victims of females, as well as completely ignoring, or downplaying the sufferings or injustices faced by men; while also saying that ALL males are somehow privelaged by birth{even if they are poor and under-privelaged} and need to all be apologetic and feel guilty for being male and that ALL females are somehow under-privelaged by birth, ignoring and having so little empathy for all the poor/under-privalged males[including white ones} while expecting even these to be apologetic to even rich/powerful/over privelaged females{or non-whites for that matter}.

            Do they OVERTLY “HATE” men, not all of them do{most of them don’t}, but the hate is more subtle…and betrays itself in all the male shaming/blaming/scapegoating/demonization/ignoring the injustices/sufferings of and suggesting that women/girls are always the victims and the under-privelaged[there are even alot of VERY privelaged middle class or upper class/wealthy feminists who do this blaming of ALL males by birth and playing the victim themselves},etc.
            This is at the very least gynocentric/gender-centric hypocritical sexist stereotyping and scapegoating and at the most misandric.

            //” but most MRA groups I have seen are openly sexist, racist, etc. That’s a problem”//

            Proof please.
            How about checking out the videos shared in my other posts to show is openly sexist, oppressive, agressive,etc. I have come acrossed a FEW sexist towards women MRA’s{I’ve also come acrossed a few sexist towards males feminists}, but not many. And I’ve never come acrossed any racist MRA’s. and I’ve been to alot of MRA sites and met a few other MRA’s along the way.
            Your accusation is a strawman.
            If you’re going to accuse or act as if MOST MRA’s are such things, OBJECTIVE PROOF PLEASE!

            //”All of them I have seen are pretty much just anti-feminist groups, “//

            Being anti-feminist or at least critical of mainstream 3rd wave feminism does not make one misogynistic or “sexist”. It makes them critical of an IDEOLOGY/cult, not of ALL females in general. Most women out there do not consider themselves feminists and many of them are critical of mainstream feminism and it’s hypocrisies even, does that mean they hate those of their own gender? No, of course not.

            Yes, MOST are anti-feminist, not anti-female or anti-womens rights activism{where applicable, and not of a gender centric cult ideology label- feminism}.
            Allthough not ALL MRA’s are anti-feminism in itself, some are pro-feminist even..just reasonbly critical of a few hyocrisies within the movement or aspects of ideology.

          • I don’t there’s any way to do “men’s rights activism” without upholding misogyny and undermining feminism. You can’t fight for a ruling group’s “rights” without it being in actuality a struggle to maintain the status quo and subjugate others. If men actually want to get rid of oppressive patriarchal norms, they need to fight for women’s liberation, which would require not centering their own needs for once.

            • Quit saying that males are the rulers of the world. Men and women of wealth and power are PERIOD! There are plenty of both. They are also plenty of poor/under-privelaged males{as well as females}. The problem is the wealthy/powerful/upper classes IN GENERAL and all lower classed people{male or female, every race, every creed,etc} need empathy and help and revolution against the upper classes PERIOD! Feminism is a distraction from this[as is masculism}.

              Feminism does not= “womens rights” nor does it equal ALL “females”. feminism is a cult ideology, most females don’t follow this ideology and theer are also male feminists. So you’re equivating the 3 is your logical and factual fallacy.

              //” If men actually want to get rid of oppressive patriarchal norms, they need to fight for women’s liberation, “//

              No, both men and women must fight against both patriarchal AND feminarchal ideas and systems and fight for gender-egalitarianism and human rights[nay ‘sentient lifeform” rights} PERIOD! MRA’s and WRA’s can work together to do this, and they should, but they must both get rid of feminist cult idelogy and masculist cult ideology both in order to gain these justices and equalities. they both need to aknowledge where the other is right and reject these gender cult ideologies of patriarchy/masculism and feminarchy/matriarchy/feminism, until this happens both genders will both have to face injustices and both will continue to impose injutsices on one another. Feminism, like masculism, is part of the problem- not the solution. Until you see this you will be locked in hypocrisy and sexism yourself.

              • Yes, men and women of wealth and power are the rulers of the world, no doubt. And how many women do you think have that kind of wealth and power, compared to how many men? There are 1,210 billionaires in the world and only 102 are women. A measly 8.4%. 535 people serve in congress, of which, only 20: 3.7% are women. Of the fortune 500 companies, only 22 have female CEOs. 4.4%

                So…yeah. Men are the rulers of the world, by your own argument.

                • Well sometimes power and wealth do not equal the other. That has also to be taken into consideration. But I mean look, much of the western world is part of the Englands common wealth, ruled by THE QUEEN.
                  There are countries in Europe that have other rulers who are QUEENS. There are a few countries[where you’d least expect this to happen actually in some cases} where women are the presidents or prime ministers. The 1% wealthist in the world are a cross section of races and genders, it’s not just about corporate CEO’s{as you say there are less females CEO’s but the number of such is growing steadily and the corporate world isn’t ACTIVELY discriminating against women, it’s just that women tend to not be drawn to those positions as often is all; it’s about the ‘choices” or “preferances” made by males and females and not ACTIVE gendered discrimination/oppression}.

                  //”So…yeah. Men are the rulers of the world, by your own argument.”//

                  Wrong, your argument/view is not very nuanced you seem to be focusing soley on congress IN THE U.S., and on corporations/CEOS’, as I’ve outlined theer are many other types of ELITES[power and/or wealth} in ALL THE WORLD, I don’t believe any objective, truly nuanced large scale studies have ever REALLY been done to look at how many wealthy and powerful people in the WHOLE WORLD in ANY CONTEXT are this or that gender. I suspect that if such were to be done it would be allmost half/half, maybe slightly more males{in which case, so what! does that negate the many wealthy and/or powerful elite 1% females out there and their corruption and greed?}.

                  • You say that men are more drawn to positions of power such as government representatives and CEOs, and that the inequality is more a personal choice or a preference difference between genders than anything else. Did you ever consider that maybe this is because men are taught from a young age that they SHOULD rule the world and seek out positions of leadership, politics and even science and that women are encouraged to take a back seat and seek more domestic roles? It happens with race, too. When I told my family, friends, and teachers that I wanted to study astrophysics when I grew up and went to college, no one was surprised, everyone was supportive. If I were a girl, people would have asked “Really? Are you sure?” “Don’t you want to study liberal arts?” “I think you should look into teaching” “Will that career leave room for your family?” If I were a black male, people would have suggested that I become an athlete, maybe study business, or I might have been told I needed to straight into the workforce. My choice would have been questioned, and not taken seriously. I have heard from many people who felt pressured into certain career paths based on their race, gender, etc. And that’s really the problem we face.

                    Supporting study: It’s well known that men test higher than women in problem solving involving spatial reasoning and visualization, which led people to believe that men were simply more biologically inclined to succeed with those challenges, for whatever reason. Recent studies have shown that this is really only true in the industrialized world, which is 100% patriarchal. In tribes and isolated societies that are matriarchal instead of patriarchal, female members of those groups consistently test higher in those same areas of logic than the men do.

                    • //Did you ever consider that maybe this is because men are taught from a young age that they SHOULD rule the world and seek out positions of leadership, politics and even science and that women are encouraged to take a back seat and seek more domestic roles? “//

                      I have and both the patriarchy and the feminarchy are equally responsible.

                      But you ignore the fact that WHEN women DO seek those positions and are equally capable of it…they are able to achieve them and get them and that women in such positions is on a steady incline{and that in human history theer have been plenty of women in positions of power and excess wealth, just as men as well}. Also plenty of males seek positions that are’nt these positions, amny seek lower positions intentionally as well.
                      Again, …..choices, NOT oppressive discrimination..

                    • So long as we are talking about gender based cultures of violence. How about feminisms culture of violence? And I’m not just talking about the agressive behaviour of the feminists at those MRA speakers at those universities I shared the videos of i a couple of my other posts.
                      I refer here to feminist violence against both females and males both, in it’s mindless abortion support. Where is the feminist female lib talk when it comes to female fetus’s?{or male ones actually; iff we are to wholly human rights oriented}.

                      To give context. I have gone from a pro-life/ant-abortion extremist{when I was a Fundy christian, just over a dedade ago} to pro-choice/abortion on demand for several years as a left-wing Deist{PaneDeist/PanDeist} and Luciferian, still hold to the latter theology and religious/occult/mystic inclination and still am mainly “left wing”{so to speak, though I think right-wing and left wing are terms that are distractions and creators of herd mentality; so I trancend both as an anti-statist anarchist/classical Libertarian on most matters but anarcho-SOCIALIST on economic matters}.
                      I now hold that abortion after 2 to 2 and half months from conception is immoral, but that abortion beforehand is ok. I do this because of the facts of embryology, empathy, and objectivity. And as such I have to be very critical of feminisms promotion of violence against the unborn infant/fetus{I am not including here the zygote or embryo}- due to it having every attribute of a newborn infant child{developed or developing- heart/beat, nerves/senses, organs, human infant form, and most importantly brain/electrical activity within that brain- which suggests some level of MIND- whether concious or subconcious}.
                      I do not agree with the far right wing fundamentalist pseudo-christians about abortion at any stage being murder, a zygote or embryo obviously is NOT a person with those attributes afforementioned[though it IS a seperate, though connected to it’s mother in womb, evolving biological entity/being; it’s not a developing frog organizism or chicken or elephant,etc, it IS indeed a developing human organism and has it’s own unique individual DNA, but it lacks all those other characteristics that make one a person with mind,etc}, thus I am ok with abortion within the first two months of pregnancy{just over half of abortions occur here; another 20-something% percent occur in the last few weeks of the first trimester, about 10% give or take depending on country occur in the second and 3rd trimester; around 708% in the 2nd and about 2 or 3 percent in the 3rd trimester}. I oppose abortion, most certainly in the second and third trimester[and I believe anyone who is not IGNORANT of fetal development facts and not devoid of concience should have the same view}- the last few weeks of the first trimester are questionable, I oppose it even there but I could see why some would not.

                      Abortion on demand is one of the most prominent issues touted by mainstream 3rd wave feminism/feminists. Objectively speaking one cannot say that killing a 2nd or 3rd trimester fetus isn’t murder of a smaller preborn infant. Yet feminists deny the science and ignore concience on this matter and support it, even though it ebcomes increasingly greusome and torturous on the preborn after 2 or 3 months from conception. Both males AND FEMALES are the victims here, tens of thousands acrossed North America every year, hundreds of thousands if not millions acrossed the globe very year}. This is violence against children, helples preborn infants[again i re-iterate not talking about zygotes/embryos here, but full blown fetus’s which are not really any different than newborn inants…just smaller and housed in a womans womb}.
                      How does/can feminists justify their violence here? How can they be ok with these torturous executions in such large numbers?

                      Surely the occasional/rare incidents of misogyists dooing something like what Elliot Rodger did, the small amounts of women[and sometimes men] killed in these instances does not compare to the torturous slaughter of hundreds of thousands of helpless preborn infants every year at the behest of the feminists and their selfish, violent ideology!
                      this is not the only way feminists are agressive or violent towards others, as i mentioned before there is also their agressive and bad behaviour in censoring or acting agressive at protests they hold when a MRA gives a speech at Universities,etc{again please scroll up to find some videos I shared on this}. But is it the worst violence they endorse and seem perfectly ok with. what amounts to preborn infant infanticide at a genocidal rate, of both males and also females[again where is the feminist “girl power/womens lib” when they are supporting the painful and gruesome murders of preborn infant girls/}

                      Feminists are complete hypocrites in this regard. To blow occasionale/rare incidences like what Elliot Rodger did way out of proporation to justofy their paranoia that misogynistic violent towards females males are around every corner waiting to hurt them, while they ignore the suffering of preborn infant fetus’s{including female ones} and the murder of them -so many of them/year…all because feminists PUSHED for it to be legal to do so…and the govt’s caved to their selfish, bloodthirsty demands!
                      They really have no moral high horse to sit upon when it comes to violence and oppression therefore, they have little validity in blowing these rare incidences way out of proportion and yet demand that women have the right to have their helpless preborn infants brutally murdered en masse for the sake of their own convenience!

              • Also, Will9Baker, I’d like know what you consider to be the difference between MRA/WRA and masculism/feminism. Some people have different definitions. To quote wikipedia:

                “…if masculism and feminism refer to the belief that men/women are systematically discriminated against, and that this discrimination should be eliminated, there is not necessarily a conflict between feminism and masculism, and some assert that they are both. However, many believe that one sex is more discriminated against, and thus use one label and reject the other.”

                Do you disagree with these definitions? If so, how would you define masculism and feminism, and if not, why do you have a problem with them as philosophies?

                • I am a “gender egalitarian” over all{that’s an actual term too, google it} and a human rights advocate in general{actually an advocate for the rights of ANY sentient being, a sentientist}. Feminism and Masculism are centric specificaslly to one or the other gender alone, they both have dogmas, ideology, herd mentality, are like cults or religions that are gender-centric{gynocentric or androcentric}.
                  I consider these to be false and wrong headed, I don’t care how the ‘majority” defines things, the “majority” can be and often is…WRONG.
                  I support, defend, and fight for ‘womens rights/suffrage’ when and where applicable, and I do the same for “mens rights/suffrage’ when and where applicable; both have their place. Feminism and Masculism have ASPECTS of these{both have some valuid and invalid points/views/arguments/rhetoric} but are much more…they are gender-centric cult ideologies.

                  //”However, many believe that one sex is more discriminated against, and thus use one label and reject the other.”….Do you disagree with these definitions? I”//

                  I reject both labels and ideologies as I stated above.
                  There are situations, instances, contexts, places,etc where men/boys are unequal and such also where women/girls are unequal.
                  But Feminits and Mascualists each are centered on only their gender and like to pretend that ONLY their gender are victims and ONLY the other gender are the victimizers. This is objectively WRONG!

                  So, no i reject those definitions.

                  //”why do you have a problem with them as philosophies?”//

                  Allready stated above.

        • You totally acknowledge that men are shamed when they’re considered weak or not assertive enough, but then you go on to say that masculinity isn’t a defined concept beyond having a penis.

          • //”You totally acknowledge that men are shamed when they’re considered weak or not assertive enough”//

            Really? Where did I say this? Seems you’re putting words in my mouth. I for one am certainly not ashamed when others p[rejudge me as weak or not assertive enough, I really don’t give a rats ass what prejudiced hypocrites think of me.

            I understand that SOME psychollogists and SOME social scientists have bought into this notion that masculinty and femininty somehow suggest these charateristics, I just believe they are wrong and not being nuanced or objective and have PRECONCIEVED false notions about sex or gender.

            • “Men also get called names for the same reasons women do, “pig”, “perv”, “creepy”, “womanizer’,etc,etc. And women often get called “butch”, ‘tomboy”, etc.
              So in other words, all you’ve proven is that both males and females have been falsely stereotyped and had unreasonable standards put on them by both the sexist males and/or patriarchy as wella s by the sexist females and feminarchy.”

              You didn’t say it yourself, but this was in response to Ari’s statement that men who don’t “measure up” are considered less than men. You raised no objections to the idea. In fact you used it to build another stupid false equivalency.

              Plus what the fuck, dude? What world do you live in that you don’t just KNOW that this happens?

            • the point isn’t that you’re ashamed or not, the point is that there are criteria in place that people can look at and judge you to be deficient in. THAT’S the point. That is the defined concept of manhood. nobody cares if you personally subscribe to that concept or not; it is a societal rule.

              • It was once a societal rule that blacks were unequal to whites in north america. So what exactly is your point? that laws define good and evil, right and wrong? That the state defines it? That herd mentality defines right and wrong,etc?

                • No, that those rules exist and need to be eliminated.

                  You aren’t willing to acknowledge that there exists a societal opinion of what a man is, and that is fucking ludicrous.

                  • I aknowledge it, there are actually a few different widespead defnitions of masculine and feminine, and they are all fallacious, and both patriearchal types and feminist types as wella s others are responsible for these false views.

      • I might note that there has never been a case of MRA’s trying to shut down feminists activism or speakers,etc.
        Here are two{and there are others} examples where feminists tried to shut down/censor/demonize mens rights speakers at Univerisites{why are feminists so anti free-speech?}:
        Prof Janice Flemengo gave a speech at the University of Toronto awhile back and the group of yelling loud feminists gathered outside in the hall outside the room where she was giving her presentation, somebody amongst them pulled the fire alarm, disrputing the event even more and everyone ahd to leave the building, the group of feminists applauded the tactic.
        When MRA[and former feminist} Will Farrell gave a lecture at the same University awhile back a bunch of feminists gathered outside the University, blocking the doors and yelling insults at everyone going to hear the speech{one young man had just lost a friend to suicide, a male friend, and since suicide rates are higher amongst men, he wanted to understand why and was looking for some clousre over the loss of his friend; a bunch of the feminists yelled at him, as they did at everyone else going in calling him/them “rape apologists”, “fuckin scum”, “fascists”, and various other ad hominem, and they did it quite aggresively too}, the cops ahd to be called to make sure they did’nt get to much out of hand, they managed to stop the speech from happening at the alloted time, though it eventually that same evening did happen. First Flanengo interupted by feminists:

        Will Farrells event interupted by feminists:

        More:

        ^^^I don’t know about you, but I’ve never seen a MRA{leta lone a group of them} act like this towards feminsists or their lecturers/speech givers at Univerisites or anywhere. This agressive and juvenile anti-free speech attitude seems to be soley{or allmost soley} a problem with the mainstream feminist movement.

        Also, feminists are so harsh on even their own when they do not fall in line with the maisntreammovements attitudes of views 100%. When feminist and civil libertarian Naomi Wolf, for example, defended Wikileaks Julian Assange when he was falsely accused of rape in Sweden, and she rationally and calmly critisized her fellow feminists for trying to sabotage Assange and for believing it to be true without sufficient evidence. She was accused of being a ‘rape apologist” by many of her fellow feminists for this.

        With all this evidence about the bad behaviour and hypocrisy of mainstream radical feminists and for why MRA-ism is legitimately addressing injutsices suffered by men in western society{feminism has allready achieved it’s goals, it needs to quit pretending that women in the west are somehow still oppressed and men never are, and perhaps take womens rights activism where it REALLY IS needed- places like the middle east and Islamist cultures for example; but of course they don’t want to do that..because mainstream feminism loves to kiss the ass of the Islamists while hypocritically condemning Christians for example}

          • I’m glad you can at least aknowledge that this behaviour by many mainstream feminists such as these ones is not acceptable. but then why do you not critisize it more openly on your own then?

            • I think it’s shitty that they do that and if I happened to be there, I’d tell them they were being lame.

              You’re WAY fucking off the mark saying MRAs don’t do the same thing, though. Feminists get to talk because there’s enough of them; MRAs have the whole of patriarchy on their side. Feminists are silenced daily due to the climate, culture, dismissal, and outright hostility from people who think they have nothing to complain about.

              • //”You’re WAY fucking off the mark saying MRAs don’t do the same thing, though. “//

                They don’t. Show me even one or two examples of a large group of MRA’s acting like this at feminist speakers events or towards feminists at feminist events?

                I aknowledge that SOME MRA individuals are sexist mysogynists, but then so are some[at least} feminists sexist misandrists. But you apply a double standard to one that you don’t to the other.

                //”Feminists are silenced daily due to the climate, culture, dismissal, and outright hostility from people who think they have nothing to complain about”//

                Yes some people are critical of feminism or at least some types of feminism or some of their views/arguments, but in the western world there is no repression/oppression of them or their ideology or activism. in fact mainstream media and govt often back them up here in the west, but they don’t give ANY help AT ALL to MRA’s. And there is far more mockery made of and hostility and prejudice against mens rights activists/MRA;s as if they have no legitimate complaints.
                They{feminists} are hardly oppressed in our western society, in fact they have the privelage in regards to gender-based views or movements. How can you deny this fact?

                Yes womens rights activists have some legit complaints, in fact in regards some cultures or parts of the world such as in theocratic Islamic middle-eastern and families/subcultures here even, or in the case of some christian sub-cultures or jewish ones even or some hindu subcultures,etc. But as far as generally here in the west…though womens rights activists have some legit complaints and concerns, none of them are MAJOR inequalities, for example: the double standard that exists in western society still[as well as most other cultures}abaout female toplessness not being morally ok but male toplessness being ok,etc.
                But again, I re-iterate there is a HUGE distinction to be made between the gender-centric cult ideology/religion of “feminism” and just “womens rights activism/suffrage where applicable”, same with masculism versus Mens Rights activism/suffrage. You keep overlooking these disctintions and falsely equating feminism with female human rights activism where appplicable and with all females in general so you can presume that anyone critical of the ideology cult of ‘feminism”{in any regard or degree} as being somehow ‘woman hating” or “misogynistic/sexist”, you’re making false equivelances here.

                • dude you really like pretending historical inequality doesn’t have lasting effects
                  you think black people aren’t oppressed in this country because jim crow is no longer law in writing

                  you think women aren’t oppressed because they can vote now and technically be elected president

                  you think the only work to be done with regards to equality has to do with the wording of laws

                  you didn’t accept a graph of black household wealth vs white household wealth because it was from a sociological survey.

                  how do you even believe in the need for MRA when these are your criteria

                  i guess cause you’re a white man and the only inequality you can see and process in your stupid brain is directly related to you or completely spelled out by the oppressors themselves

                  • Sure it does. But if it does, so does it for the white slaves{enslaved by the arabs and north africans,etc] and their decendents. But no one has EVER offerred their decendeds an apology, theer has been ZERO mention of this by anyone or anything maisntream, only on white peoples racial crimes soley. How is that equality?

                    The laws and the elites don’t give a shit about race or gender{and never really ever did} it’s all about financial status/class with them; they play nicely with other wealthy and powerful people of other races and genders. All is ‘financial/economic/material wealth classism”.

                    Even is so-called patriarchal dark ages europe women were equal to men{ BOTH poor men and poor women had some different sets of inequalites or injustices imposed on them} if they were from affluent backgrounds or if theybgained the respect of the power elites of the time. The first major serial kilelr of note was a woman, Elizabeth Bathory, and she tortured and killed hundredss of victims for years and though the powers suspected her they’re hands were tied in arresting her for YEARS because she was a wealthy and powerful aristocrat, they let her get away with so much for so long, even though she was a woman.
                    Joan of Arcs societies people allowed her to lead them in battle.
                    Kings AND QUEENS[and welathy aristocrats both male and female} ruled equally like gods over everyone else{male or female} for most of human history, and still do. Britains and Canadas head of state is the governor general who represents THE QUEEN and HER interests.
                    I could go on and on.

                    It’s ALWAYS beei about material wealth class for western worlds elites[and most world elites for most of human history}.

                    //”i guess cause you’re a white man and that’s the only inequality you can see and process in your stupid brain”//

                    Ad hominem is a logical fallacy and the last resort of someone who does not have solid counter arguments.
                    How does my race or gender really matter here? there ARE female MRA’S AFTER ALL AND NON-WHITE ONES TOO.
                    No, I see ALL people suffering inequalites at the hands of each other, but mostly my major concern is about class and heirarchy{wealth/power}- because that is the over-arching oppressor of everyone of every race and every gender and most creeds and everyone of every race/gender/etc are equally victims and equally victimizers.

                    • why are you willing to believe in an artificial hierarchy like aristocracy but not an artificial hierarchy like patriarchy or white supremacy?

                    • To SOLOMON WONG;

                      You said: //”white slaves got their apology when they took over the world and gained power over everyone else through trade agreements, superior violence, and neocolonialism”//

                      White slaves did’nt take over the world dude. Nor did ALL white people in general. SOME whites took over[at least for a time} in North America. You can’t include Europe in that since whites are the natives of Europe.
                      In North America, SOME whites[not ALL white countries and cultures were involve din north american colonialism or the Nazi germany regime,etc btw; only SOME white cultures are complicit, not ALL and not ALL white people in general} took over through racist oppression for a time, I don’t deny that. But NOW in North America intitutionally whites are NOT ALL the power elites anymore. in North America theer are power elites of various races and genders and creeds. But heer you are blaming ALL whites of ALL white cultures for what only SOME did. And most of the colonialism btw was’nt done by “whites” as if whites are abd and oppressive inherently, nay…that is only part of the truth that accusation, the other half is that they were SPECIFICALLY fundamentalist christians[and yet how many non-whites in North America today follow the religion that was imposed on their ancestors? ALOT! Isn’t that absurd?}.

                      Do whites control other parts of the world? No. not all. Europe is mainly white but also has people of other races living equally there now, though whites are the NATIVE inhabitants of Europe{so many pseudo-progressives ignore this fact}.
                      Asia is control;ed by asians, north africa by black north africans, the middle east by arab muslims and jews,etc, Europe by whites,etc. You’ll find FAR LESS racial, gender, and other forms of equality, diversity and tolerance of diversity in those places then you will in oh so evil white racist america/north america; north america is the most diverse and tolerant and accepting of diversity place on the planet. But the way pseudo-progrsssives think and speak one would think North America is the LEAST such.
                      Do you equally condemn the power elites of those other countries and continents for this as you do whites or ‘white” Americans? Do you equally blame the people of those cultures for being racist/sexist/etc themselves and for being so homogenous and so less tolerant of diversity? Do you equally blame some of those cultures, races and belief systems of some of them for the oppressions and persecutions they’ve done towards others either recently or in the past? No! You only blame white people. Can you not see the racist hypocrisy in this?
                      Anyways, this isn’t about race and racism.
                      This debate is supposed to be about sexism or more specifically about violebce between the genders. We’ve digressed.

                    • It isn’t really a digression because you have the same failure to understand both situations. White slavery is irrelevant because every “white” group that was once enslaved is now in control of their own country. It is not at all analogous to black slavery, where black Americans live in a white country that holds them back through various means and many African countries aren’t in control of their OWN countries because of economic machinations.

                      Likewise, the grievances of men are bad, and should be acknowledged, but they don’t feed into a complex in the same way as what women face. Sorry, violence against men simply IS NOT the same as violence against women. While men are controlled through violence, it’s in the same capacity as everyone else. women are controlled through violence to keep them as a perpetual underclass (even more of an underclass than un-wealthy men). As for women’s violence against men, that is deplorable, but again, not part of a system or in any way comparable to systematic disenfranchisement

                    • SOLOMON WONG.

                      Hmm. so the fact that say the Arabs{Oil} and Chizese{products} pretty much OWN Americas ass{and some other so-called ‘white” places} is ignored by you?
                      Man, do you understand the inter-dynamics of power in the world or is your racist and sexist delusion that white males control the whole world so over-powering that you refuse to see these inter-dynamics?

                      Like is said, rich and powerful people of ALL races and sexes[yes that also includes whites and males but also females and other races} control the world. Stop scapegoating ONLY whites/males/white males, because it is a hypocriticaly racist and sexist delusion to do so and ignores these inter-dynamics and nuances and variables for the simplistic easy to make shallow slogans and rhetoric out of ideologt that has brainwashed your mind.

                      I aknowledge black slavery. But I also aknowledge white slavery. I’ll bet that until I pointed out the arab/north african white slave trade that you had’nt even heard of this tragedy, or that if you did you just ignored it and pretended like it did;’nt exist and will probably continue to do so[and not just you, but everyone else here, all you pseudo-progressives in general out there}. Your Hypocrisy apparently knows no bounds.

                    • Oil producing countries in the near-east are under diplomatic and military threat to continue producing for us and China’s production economy depends on America retaining spending power, so their ownership of our debt is meaningless.

                    • there is no blame being laid here; “privilege” is not blame, it’s just a fact about the society we live in that it favors white hetero cis able-bodied christian men (and has various rules to enforce those categories). Anyone who doesn’t match that is at a disadvantage.

                    • Considering he conflated blame with privilege, and actually assumes feminists hate men, I highly doubt he knows anything about feminism or even took that gender studies class he so touts.

                    • //”Considering he conflated blame with privilege, and actually assumes feminists hate men, I highly doubt he knows anything about feminism or even took that gender studies class he so touts. “//

                      Yeah, I don’t agree with you and I have counter-evidence and arguments…that makes me a “liar”, I suppose it also makes me a ‘troll”?

                      I’m done arguing with you people. As Thomas Paine{oh no a “dead white male”-as feminists as derogatorily say when people quite ‘dead white males”; it may be important to note that Paine was also the FIRST womens rights advocate of note in North America and the first person to co-found the first anti-slavery/racism organization in the U.S., the first to write for animal rights and so on as well; also the first to openly take on reevaled religion and fundy christianity in a overt manner in North America; and one of my two o3 three major heros} said “To argue with a man who has renounced his reason is like administering medicine to the dead”, and this fits you people, you pseudo-progressive hyocrites so well.
                      With that I take my leave from this debate.

                    • white slaves got their apology when they took over the world and gained power over everyone else through trade agreements, superior violence, and neocolonialism

  2. Pingback: Hot brunettes: Elliot Rodger didn’t want them… | oogenhand

  3. The idea that domestic violence shows gender symmetry (and reports of absurdly high rates of men being abused, like 40% of domestic violence victims) is completely false. Statistics suggesting equal numbers of abusive men and women fail to consider how women and men use aggression — is it a response to greater aggression? is it self-defense? is it part of a pattern? does it function to intimidate and control one’s partner? is the abuser trying to portray himself as a victim? (a common tactic). Furthermore, they tend to exclude sexual assault (perpetrated overwhelmingly by men) as a form of violence. They completely misrepresent the reality of abuse in order to dismiss male violence as a problem. If anyone’s interested, a more thorough analysis can be found here.

    • Look it up dude. Stats canada, the CDC, Harvard, and various other sources say such.

      //” fail to consider how women and men use aggression — is it a response to greater aggression? is it self-defense? is it part of a pattern? does it function to intimidate and control one’s partner?”//

      That’s kind of my point. It is these nuances and variables that mainstream feminists ignore in regards female violence/abuse of males in their lives.

      It can and does go both ways.

      //”is the abuser trying to portray himself as a victim? (a common tactic).”//

      A sexist comment if I ever saw one. It SHOULD read: “is the abuser trying to portray himself/Herself as a victim?”, a tactic used by some females and some males, abusers.
      You completely ignore the statistics dude to hypocritically downplay the seriousness of violence by one gender[females} against another{males}. how can you reasonably and objectively do that? Hypocritically Ignore having empathy for men who are victims of female violence/abuse? Why are males{men and boys} so damned expendable to people like you?

      //”Furthermore, they tend to exclude sexual assault (perpetrated overwhelmingly by men) as a form of violence.”//

      Define “sexual assault”? This could mean full blown “rape”- which you’re correct about here, I won’t deny that. However, there are also indeed cases where women rape men{usually by drugging them first, but not always}- though these are in the minority…why should they be downplayed or over-looked? why should these victims be ignored, overlooked?
      Now, as for sexual harrasment{there are several different types of this} and other forms of sexual assault{there are several different types of this} theer are plenty of women who sexually assault a male{feminists often define sexual assault as even minor unwanted touching; ok by that definition MANY women/girls “sexually assault” many men/boys too}. Sexual Harrasment is pretty much just as common amongst both genders, gay or straight or bi,etc. And no not all MRA’s talk about this because they see it as not relevant to the injustices suffered by males, some do mention it however and talk about the sexual abuse of men or boys by women or girls[or other men/boys for that matter}- they don’t deny that it also ahppens to women{whereas feminists tend to deny that it happens to men/boys…at least not very much, it happens more than they’d like to admit}.

      Need I also mention the several high profile cases of women teachers sexually exploiting tween and early teen boys? You might add that these are a minority. Well yeah, but then obviously not all women that do this or that rape or sexually abuse their own or someone elses children, are caught{same with male sexual abusers of kids/youths}. You may say, well those are some random cases. Yes, and so are men dooing and saying the shit that the Elliot Rodger did/said. Men going ape shit and dooing things what this guy did are also a minority and rare, but you are using it to justify this idea/implication that there are sexually depraved violent males around every corner seeking to abuse females, which simply aint true.

      //” They completely misrepresent the reality of abuse in order to dismiss male violence as a problem”//

      No, feminists are the ones that do that in order to dismiss that female violence towards males, or just in general, is allmost just as common in our society and world, and to scapegoat males alone for it all. How can you ignore the stats and evidence I have shared in my several posts here? Are you being delibeately obtuse and unempathetic or just ignorant{everyone signorant about something, can’t fault you for that of course} – but being delibaretely ignorant, ignoring counter-arguments and counter-evidences? What are you so afraid of in aknowledging these facts and evidences and also stats by these sources such as Stats canada, the CDC, Harvard, and others?

      • I’m not ignoring anything; I’m pointing out how they are misleading and the conclusion you and other MRAs come to is wrong. did you actually read the article I linked? have you actually examined the studies you cling to? do you actually know anything about the mentality behind abuse and domestic violence? (no, no, no.) do you deliberately avoid recognizing the relationship between individualized violence and society power dynamics? (yes.) do you actually care about male victims of domestic violence (I doubt it), or do you just want to use them as props to support your vision of a fantasy world where you, as a white male, are oppressed?

        • Yes I have studied and examined the other side that you’re arguing. I’ve researched and studied and considered ALL sides{and the middle too] before coming to any conclusion on ANYTHING. I used to call myself a feminist some years back; actually from mid-2000’s till just a couple or so years ago I was a feminist, I even took a womens and genders studies{I don’t know why it’s called ‘and genders” since it focus’es soley on females} course.
          After years of agreeing with mainstream feminists[well to a degree I always challenged the “lets blame males for everything” crap, but everything else…I agreed with} I did further research and thinking and came to the copnclusions I now hold. No one can reasonably argue that I’m ignorant about feminism and it’s history or many types/sects or it’s arguments and rhetoric, or that I’m just some ignorant right wing conservative “privelaged” white male misogynist douchebag. I came to these views I have after years of research and deep thought and cross-research from all angles; ie: i came to the views I hold slowly and thoughfully.

          Have you as thoroughly studied and as deeply and fairly considered the other side or the middle or the other half of the story? Apparently not. Hypocrite.
          Ya know if the percentage of men who are victims of domestic/relationship/gendered violence/abuse by females was MUCH lower than women by men, say like 5 or 10 percent to women being 90-95 percent of the victims, you might have a vlaid case. But it’s allmost 50/50, it’s 49% males and 51% females{roughtly 8% of women and 7% of men, at least in Canada where I live anyhow}. How can you all so coldly ignore those objective factual stats? These stats are backed by Stats Canada, the CDC, and various others.

          //”do you actually know anything about the mentality behind abuse and domestic violence? (“//

          There are several mentalities behind it, depending on the individuals and insividual cases. Men and women abuse each other for multiple reasons, some shared by others..some unique to them. I just think it’s incredibly sexist for feminists and people they’ve brainwashed to focus SOLEY on abuse of women[and children; as if women never abuse children ~rolls eyes~] by SOLEY men{and by the feminist rhetoric pretty much soley hetero males} and ignore the objective facts that allmost half of domestic/relationship violence/abuse victims are men/males{making allmost half of absuers…women/females}. I think it’s very sexist and very calloused. I oppose ALL domestic/relationship violence/abuse PERIOD! And have empathy for ALL victims{male or female or otherwise; gay, hetero, bi,etc} and believe ALL victimizers whether male or female need to be held accountable.

          //”do you actually care about male victims of domestic violence (I doubt it)”//

          Of course I do. Why would I put myself in the line of fire of being misrepresented by others and demonized by them if I did’nt? I also equally care about female victims. Do you care about both equally?
          I’ve been thr victim of violence/abuse by women. In my adult life I’ve been physically assaulted by 3 different adult women, 2 of them MUCH larger[I’m about 130 pounds give or take and skinny; they were both at least about 250 pounds give or take} and stronger than myself, the other one about same size and strength as myself but I have a physical disability and she[and the others} did’nt. I have what’s called mildly severe or moderate scolioses[and related physical disablities/deformity}. One of those larger ladies put me through my apt wall[and then refused to accept my call afterwards to help me pay to get fixed when my landlord threataned to kick me out if I did’nt get it done immediately; being on disability I could;nt afford it so my father had to pay $300 buck to help me.
          the smaller one attacked me twice; one in my apt, the other time in her car…running through a crosswalk and allmost hitting a pedestrain in the process.
          In none of the 4 times I was attacked by these 3 did I even shove them away or lay a finger on them in self-defense. In fact I’ve never laid a finger on anyone in offense and only a few times in self-defense as a kid{Jr.High and younger}. I was also kicked in the nuts a few times as a kid by girls, I kicked back at their groins. I got in much more shit than they did for it.
          As as adult I’ve ironically NEVER been assaulted by a single male, not one, There’s been a few times where I was allmost..but reasoned my way out of it, was’nt able to reason my way out of being assaulted by those women though. BTW; a couple of the other assaults involved me being hit and kicked, my glasses thrown acrossed the room, my stuff thrown around, my hair being pulled, hit with a computer and sitting in a corner on my floor terrified in tears.
          Another one, one of the bigger women, I was living with her and her husband[who she was abusive towards but he’d never admit it}- she was over 250 pounds, quite large, when I moved into their basement/rented it I was of the same religious beleifs as them…evangelical christian, during my stay there I came to lose my faith and move onto a different belief; one day they asked me about that and we got into a conversation/debate about religion and christianity and god and so on, I guess I offended her religious feelings with one of my points/arguments..because the next thing I knew she ran at me, grabbed me by my throat and scruff of neck of shirt and shoved me aagainst a wall, lifting me off the floor, screaming in my face for a couple minutes.

          I know a man who’s in his 50’s and walked with a cane{who I worked with at the local soup kitchen for the poor and homeless}. He was hanging out having a few beers with a women in her 30’s{who also worked with us} one evening, when for no apparent reasons she got pissed off at him and smashed a couple bottles over his head, putting him in emergency, and for months afterwards he had to use a full blown ‘walker”{you know like 90 year old grandparents in homes do} to get around.
          She was eventually charged but it took longer for this to happen and she was let off more easily than if it had been the other way around.

          I’m dooing this for myself, for him, and for all males who have suffered in silence while being violently abused by women in their lives and yet at the same time told by ignorant pricks how they are “privelaged” and how their suffering does;’nt matter as much as womens.

          I also have equal empathy for women abused. But where is YOUR empathy, all of you here, for males who’ve been violently abused by females?

          Yes I do this because of EMPATHY!

          //” fantasy world where you, as a white male, are oppressed?”//

          You don’t know me! How dare you. You have no idea how much i’ve suffered in my life. You have no idea how I’ve grown up allmost dirt poor and have lived my entire adult life as a disabled below the poverty line[for north america} guy who happens to be white male[and I’m certainly not the only one] while being told by even wealthier and more privelaged self-hating whites/males , feminists, and pseudo-progressives{some of them much more more privelaged than I/we, some of those even being females and/or non-white people; some of them EXTREMELY rich and privelaged}.
          Where do you hypocrites get off being so calloused and prejudiced towards someone just because they happen to have been born with white skin or a dick{or both}?!

          Look in the mirror, remove the log from thine eye and PRE-judge not lest ye be PRE-judged yourself to paraphrase Jesus.
          {No I’m not ‘christian”, but I respect Jesus as mystic and ethics teacher and agree with him on several things..including that paraphrased quote}.

  4. Being a man is now a mental illness. this site never fails to make me chuckle, let me guess, only if there white too, right?

    • Reading comprehension isn’t your strongest quality is it? I specifically say that it’s not a mental health issue, but a societal issue in how we teach gender and gender performance.

      • Yeah, your right, what you said about tieing in masculinity with the mentally ill being unfair to the mentally ill is waay less bigotted

        • Yeah it has nothing to do with learned behaviors, cultural values, and shaming or anything. Still an F for reading comprehension, but A+ for effort cuz I know you’re really trying to make yourself a victim here.

          • yeah, yeah, I know, victim status is reserved for everything and everyone under the sun except straight white guys, I get it. it just baffles me, some of the bullshit hypocritical biggoted hatespeech you get away with, and pretend your all ‘progressive’ and ‘tollerant/accepting’ and all that gay shit.what a joke. Im just glad that in the real world people like you stick to blogs where you can high five eachother quietly, and no one seriously has to deal with you

  5. Just a repeat, last post in this debate on my part:

    ***//”Considering he conflated blame with privilege, and actually assumes feminists hate men, I highly doubt he knows anything about feminism or even took that gender studies class he so touts. “//

    Yeah, I don’t agree with you and I have counter-evidence and arguments…that makes me a “liar”, I suppose it also makes me a ‘troll”?

    I’m done arguing with you people. Thomas Paine{oh no a “dead white male”-as feminists as derogatorily say when people quite ‘dead white males”; it may be important to note that Paine was also the FIRST womens rights advocate of note in North America and the first person to co-found the first anti-slavery/racism organization in the U.S., the first to write for animal rights and so on as well; also the first to openly take on revealed religion and fundy christianity in a overt manner in North America; and one of my two o3 three major heros, along with Aleister Crowley, Jesus, Christopher Hitchens, Noam Chomsky and a few others} anyways…Tom Paine said “To argue with a man who has renounced his reason is like administering medicine to the dead”, and this fits you people, you pseudo-progressive hyocrites so well.
    With that I take my leave from this debate. I’ve got better things to spend time/energy on”***

  6. SOLOMON WONG: //”okay thanks that’s all i need for your highlight reel at the “Most Oblivious Person Ever” awards”//

    Ad hominem, the last resort of the person with no valid arguments.

  7. Oops, sorry. I’m going to repost{sorry for the double post} something I just posted beause I accidentally posted in response to someone elses post and did so out of context, I meant to post it as a seperate post in itself. Which I will do here:

    **So long as we are talking about gender based cultures of violence. How about feminisms culture of violence? And I’m not just talking about the agressive behaviour of the feminists at those MRA speakers at those universities I shared the videos of i a couple of my other posts.
    I refer here to feminist violence against both females and males both, in it’s mindless abortion support. Where is the feminist female lib talk when it comes to female fetus’s?{or male ones actually; iff we are to wholly human rights oriented}.

    To give context. I have gone from a pro-life/ant-abortion extremist{when I was a Fundy christian, just over a dedade ago} to pro-choice/abortion on demand for several years as a left-wing Deist{PaneDeist/PanDeist} and Luciferian, still hold to the latter theology and religious/occult/mystic inclination and still am mainly “left wing”{so to speak, though I think right-wing and left wing are terms that are distractions and creators of herd mentality; so I trancend both as an anti-statist anarchist/classical Libertarian on most matters but anarcho-SOCIALIST on economic matters}.
    I now hold that abortion after 2 to 2 and half months from conception is immoral, but that abortion beforehand is ok. I do this because of the facts of embryology, empathy, and objectivity. And as such I have to be very critical of feminisms promotion of violence against the unborn infant/fetus{I am not including here the zygote or embryo}- due to it having every attribute of a newborn infant child{developed or developing- heart/beat, nerves/senses, organs, human infant form, and most importantly brain/electrical activity within that brain- which suggests some level of MIND- whether concious or subconcious}.
    I do not agree with the far right wing fundamentalist pseudo-christians about abortion at any stage being murder, a zygote or embryo obviously is NOT a person with those attributes afforementioned[though it IS a seperate, though connected to it’s mother in womb, evolving biological entity/being; it’s not a developing frog organizism or chicken or elephant,etc, it IS indeed a developing human organism and has it’s own unique individual DNA, but it lacks all those other characteristics that make one a person with mind,etc}, thus I am ok with abortion within the first two months of pregnancy{just over half of abortions occur here; another 20-something% percent occur in the last few weeks of the first trimester, about 10% give or take depending on country occur in the second and 3rd trimester; around 708% in the 2nd and about 2 or 3 percent in the 3rd trimester}. I oppose abortion, most certainly in the second and third trimester[and I believe anyone who is not IGNORANT of fetal development facts and not devoid of concience should have the same view}- the last few weeks of the first trimester are questionable, I oppose it even there but I could see why some would not.

    Abortion on demand is one of the most prominent issues touted by mainstream 3rd wave feminism/feminists. Objectively speaking one cannot say that killing a 2nd or 3rd trimester fetus isn’t murder of a smaller preborn infant. Yet feminists deny the science and ignore concience on this matter and support it, even though it ebcomes increasingly greusome and torturous on the preborn after 2 or 3 months from conception. Both males AND FEMALES are the victims here, tens of thousands acrossed North America every year, hundreds of thousands if not millions acrossed the globe very year}. This is violence against children, helples preborn infants[again i re-iterate not talking about zygotes/embryos here, but full blown fetus’s which are not really any different than newborn inants…just smaller and housed in a womans womb}.
    How does/can feminists justify their violence here? How can they be ok with these torturous executions in such large numbers?

    Surely the occasional/rare incidents of misogyists dooing something like what Elliot Rodger did, the small amounts of women[and sometimes men] killed in these instances does not compare to the torturous slaughter of hundreds of thousands of helpless preborn infants every year at the behest of the feminists and their selfish, violent ideology!
    this is not the only way feminists are agressive or violent towards others, as i mentioned before there is also their agressive and bad behaviour in censoring or acting agressive at protests they hold when a MRA gives a speech at Universities,etc{again please scroll up to find some videos I shared on this}. But is it the worst violence they endorse and seem perfectly ok with. what amounts to preborn infant infanticide at a genocidal rate, of both males and also females[again where is the feminist “girl power/womens lib” when they are supporting the painful and gruesome murders of preborn infant girls/}

    Feminists are complete hypocrites in this regard. To blow occasionale/rare incidences like what Elliot Rodger did way out of proporation to justofy their paranoia that misogynistic violent towards females males are around every corner waiting to hurt them, while they ignore the suffering of preborn infant fetus’s{including female ones} and the murder of them -so many of them/year…all because feminists PUSHED for it to be legal to do so…and the govt’s caved to their selfish, bloodthirsty demands!
    They really have no moral high horse to sit upon when it comes to violence and oppression therefore, they have little validity in blowing these rare incidences way out of proportion and yet demand that women have the right to have their helpless preborn infants brutally murdered en masse for the sake of their own convenience!**

  8. Pingback: elliot rodger and the logical conclusion | massive hassle

  9. For anyone interested in the OBJECTIVE FACTS about domestic/gender violence/abuse and about MRA’s and feminism, I reccomend books{and videos/youtube clips/etc} and articles on said issues by Christina Hoff Summers{the above videos speaker}, Will Farrell, and Janice Flamengo

    • Not sure how the above video came up in my above post. Let me try that again{allthough what the girl in the above video says is ALSO relevant}, let me try again to post the the Christina Hoff Summers video:

      For anyone interested in the OBJECTIVE FACTS about domestic/gender violence/abuse and about MRA’s and feminism, I reccomend books{and videos/youtube clips/etc} and articles on said issues by Christina Hoff Summers{the above videos speaker}, Will Farrell, and Janice Flamengo

    • P.S. I’m not very computer saavy, so I’m not sure whey the above video keeps changing here everytime I “like” or add to my “faves” a new video on youtube.
      Yesterday tha above video came up as something else[when I meant it to be a different video}. Argh, I hate how all these net sites link up to each other in such ways causing this kinda confusion. So now, while I did post my thoughts about abortion[and feminism} I did not mean to put up this “abortion’ video above{or whatever else it becomes as I add new vids to my youttube “faves”.
      My apology for the confusion and/or wasted space. The one below was the one that meant to put here.

  10. A few more relevant videos{a couple rap songs too; no I’m not a big rap fan, I’m a metalhead, but I appreciate most forms of music/art, including some rap}:

  11. Every discussion like this seems to be dominated by these MRA types who go on and on about the unfairness they have endured. Aside from being incredibly annoying, it is really off topic. I’ve come to think the only important action that can work against these expectations is to help women be aware and protect themselves against pickup artists and even worse. I’m not thinking particularly about physical self defense (though I guess that may be necessary in some situations), but of understanding what such people try to do during interactions, and how to avoid or get rid of them. It isn’t fair that we can’t stop this kind of behavior, but for right now, self-protection is paramount.

    • I agree and disagree. I don’t believe self protection is paramount in terms of society. It’s paramount in the everyday to avoid situations like this. I do self defense, but honestly, all the self defense in the world doesn’t necessarily prepare you for someone you know (or thought you knew) preying on you in a way that absolutely breaks your trust. Also, women are in a situation where they will almost always lose. People will find reasons for why she was unfair, or “cold hearted,” or “selfish,” or lying, or “giving mixed signals.” They will come up with reasons for how she should have known better, or how she should have learned self defense. What’s paramount in the big picture is that men who do not take responsibility must start doing so. They must not see sex (and not getting it from a woman) as an unfair hardship. They must see it for what it is, that rape was condoned not too long ago, and in many places and situations it’s still excused and protected. It’s a fairly new thing that women can decide what they want to do with their bodies, whether it means having sex or not having sex.

  12. What Love- shyness is its just a mental illness. What you guys are doing is living in a denial or fantasy. In some crazy ideal which must be real. What you need to to do is take accountability out of your life and reckon that the problem is you. You get in this life things or achievements regarding how much work or input you do for it. If you cant get something in this life, its because you screwed up or something went wrong. Its good to vent for it but its ill to obsess over it( LS.com).

    The only path to real recovery is to grow out from anti- social personality and other emotional and social issues and just simply BECOME A NORMAL HUMAN BEING. Otherwise things are going to the rocks. PUA, if someones IQ can process it neutrally, is a system trying to cope shy men into decend workers, boyfriends and human beings. What you do here is to aggressively reap the whirlwind and it will lead only to complete self- destruction.

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